Round 2

Muslim says:

Thanks for the reply, As atonement requiring anything isnt GOD who made the rules I see what you are saying but you are trying to convert me with faith, not reason or logic.  THe problem with that is everyone has faith in their religion, it takes logic to make a change.  So you can say Jesus (may peace be upon him) said this, and then the Islamic faith denies that Jesus ever made those claims, and if two large groups are in debate over what one said, we have to logically decide which makes more sense, I believe. If we were talking about hindu faith or some UnGodly religion, they will go and say that this infalliable man told us to do this and that and believe this and that, and since he was this and that we should believe him.  THe message is what has to make sense we cant just believe based on belief. The Jews who saw everything Jesus did didnt believe, they took him as an enemy.  I do believe Jesus is from God, unlike the Jews ( That why its always confused me why Christians like Jews more the Muslims, but thats another topic)

Second God is the ultimate judge he can whatever He chooses.

NOW this is my most important point, the people of the world thousands of years before Jesus, what happens to them?  Moses was before Jesus, his people which God Saved did not believe in Jesus.  So is Moses Going to Hell? Isaac and Abraham too?  They talked about a messiah, but they never said son of GOD. Islam says all that believe in God and the last day and DO GOOD WORKS (belief isnt enough) have nothing to fear nothing to regret, so Islam clearly states you dont have to be Muslim to go to Heaven, while Christianity takes a harsher view.  This last point youll have to hit very hard and logically to convert me, right now Im not christian so i dont have christian faith, i need christian logic please.

BCBSR Response:

Thanks for responding.  But I don't quite follow your rhetoric. For on the one hand you seem to be saying that it is unreasonable to believe in Jesus, and yet you claim to believe in Jesus.

I understand what you mean by what I would call the "blind faith" issue -the idea, as you say, of faiths characterized as, "They will go and say that this infalliable man told us to do this and that and believe this and that, and since he was this and that we should believe him." But to me that's Islam. Mohammed claims to be speaking God's word and yet provides scanty evidence which can be substantiated that he is authentically God's prophet and the Koran being infallible. With respect to the issue of "reason" or authenticity, it's not really all that diffent than Hinduism. Hinduism has it's own unsubstantiated legends and fables - claims of the miraculous, along with its writings.

In contrast to such religions - indeed in contrast to all other religions -is Judeo-Christianity, containing a record of miracles in the Bible substantiated by their nature and in view of their very public context.

Thus, as I indicated previously, I do not believe in Jesus blindly, just because he claims to be speaking the word of God. I believe because the evidence which he provided of his prophetic authenticity is compelling and convincing to me. And he himself affirmed such reasoning.

But getting back to this claim that you believe in Jesus, I previously provided many quotes of what Jesus said, yet I have the impression that you don't believe. For why do you take issue with what I said? So let me go through each quote from the previous email and ask whether you believe what Jesus said in each case. For what good is it to say that you believe in Jesus if you don't believe what he said?

Gospel of John chapter 5:24-27 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
Gospel of John chapter 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Gospel of Matthew 26:28
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
"Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?" Mat 20:15
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
Jesus said, "My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." John 8:24
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." John 17:5

John 8:58, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
"The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me." John 10:25

"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." John 14:11

Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?
 Jesus said, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." Mark 9:31
Do you believe what Jesus says here, or do you disbelieve?

Now as for your second point you say, "Second God is the ultimate judge he can whatever He chooses." I assume you mean he can "do" whatever he chooses. Actually he's limited to his character - at least Yahweh is, I don't know about Allah. For example Yahweh cannot lie. In fact Yahweh can't do anything sinful - anything which is contrary to his character. Yahweh cannot do what is unjust. But certainly, as I mentioned extensively in my previous email, he can freely chose to exercise his grace in accordance with whatever arbitrary standard he desires. I heartily agree with you in that. And Jesus has declared who God has arbitrarily chosen to be saved. He has chosen those who believe in Jesus.

Don't you agree that God has the right to chose whom he will? Then you shouldn't have any problem with the idea that God has chosen those who have faith in Christ. You say you believe what Jesus said. Jesus himself declared this fact. And so why would you have a problem with this idea? Else I could paraphase Jesus in Matt 20:15 "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own grace? Or are you envious because I am gracious?"

You ask what about people before Jesus - why is that even an issue? Regardless of how they were chosen at that time it has no bearing on the issue of how people are saved now. Doesn't God have the right to determine both the time and the method of his chosing? But in fact salvation has always been by faith. Faith in the promise of God. What differs is simply the revelation of the promise. And didn't Jesus himself say, "If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." John 5:46 Do you believe what Jesus said? Indeed Moses was saved by faith in the LORD, as was Abraham and Isaac. Of Abraham it is written, "And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." Genesis 15:6 Wasn't until later that the LORD was revealed as the LORD Jesus Christ.

"son of God" is not really the issue, is it? For Jesus said he was the son of God and so to reject what he said about himself is to disbelieve him. Do you believe in Jesus or do you reckon him a false prophet?

And what relevance is it whether "Christianity" takes a hasher view of the judgment day compared to Islam, or not?  Is it that you're searching for a religion that has the least harshest judgment? Why not just chose a religion that has no hell and that everyone gets saved unconditionally? On that basis would you convert to such a religion? Not me. Having been convinced that God has spoken, it seems to me reasonable to accept what he said about judgment and the requirements for salvation, rather than make up my own religion. Doesn't that seem reasonable and logical to you?

Now what you feel you need to convert you is not necessarily what God feels is sufficient evidence to hold you accountable. That is, you may feel that you need more than what is sufficient from God's point of view. What the Bible says should be sufficient. But if you find it is not, then you can argue about that with God on the judgement day. But it seems to me given the unsubstantiated blind faith in Mohammed inherent in Islamic faith, you're going to have a hard time reasoning with God as to why then you didn't believe the Bible, don't you think?

Thanks for the discussion.

The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources Jul 29,2015